View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | View Status | Date Submitted | Last Update |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0018272 | MMW 5 | Main Panel | public | 2021-09-10 20:21 | 2021-09-30 11:57 |
| Reporter | Ludek | Assigned To | |||
| Priority | urgent | Severity | minor | Reproducibility | always |
| Status | closed | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 5.0 | ||||
| Target Version | 5.0.2 | Fixed in Version | 5.0.2 | ||
| Summary | 0018272: 'Show all subnodes' enabled by default | ||||
| Description | Users updating from MM4 to MM5 are often frustrated by Artist node not having subnodes like in MM4. MM5 already has a config for this 'Show all subnodes', but users are not aware of this config. Discussion here: https://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=485479#p485479 Some good reasons for having this enabled explained by user 'themgnt' The suggestion is to make this config enabled by default. Also having this config enabled by default raises a question whether this config is still needed for something and shouldn't be eliminated entirely? | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Fixed in build | 2503 | ||||
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I've raised this too in the passed and think it should be enable by default. This gets the MM4 experience and many users do use the Media Tree for navigating their Library. I don't mind keeping the option though, a few users may appreciate this. |
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b) Focus tree nodes do not follow navigation. Barry recorded in this video which as the reason for creating this bug https://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=486809#p486809 Steps to reproduce: - Enable Subnodes - Enable Focus tree on browwsing 1. Hide Tree node (Left panel) 2. Navigate to HOME -> Music -> Artist -> Queen 3. Un hide Tree node (Left Panel) Expected that Tree is expanded all the way to Queen and focused. |
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I agree that the current default confuses and frustrates too many users, without some improved discoverability. I have never observed any performance improvement gained from the default setting, but assumed that was because I have greater PC, memory, and lan resources than the everage user. .. There is an advantage for user with minimal resources? Changing the default does introduce a usability issue. ATM the contextual filter reliably auto-opens a search control whenever the user types something. Once you become used to this, it is one of the greatest advances delivered by the MM5 UI, IMO. It becomes less easy to use, and frustrating, when Show All Nodes is on, because focus gets stolen by the Media Tree. I think that would also cause disorientation for new users. The contextual search facility works better with All Nodes off, and there is a discoverability issue with this fact also. The post that Lukek referred to, illustrates that MM5 is in a messy place, caught between the "new" and the old "ui". There is a piece missing in the new UI. When the User navigated to a place like Music>Artist the breadcrump should be Music>Artist>, so that the user can use the trailing ">" to open a vertical list of all artists, instead of having to deal with a matrix of unknown faces, or a list made huge because it has a separate entry for every track. i.e. Be like Music>Genres> which has the trailing >, as a control for a dropdown list Alternatively the new UI could have a List By Artist view, in Artist and AlbumArtist nodes, to filter the display. I prefer the breadcrumb extension. My vote would be: * add the terminal breadcrumb control ... required to make the new paradigm usable when navigating user or album lists * add a new node to the Help menu, which contains useful Quickstart advice for migrating users: *** list of commons gotyas and solutions *** try and "sell" the new UI by demonstrating and explaining design intent ... and the benefits, e.g. can quickly get to Peter Gabriel, if you have forgotten his 1st name ... and that dropdown lists improve screen utilisation, and that massive vertical tree structures, which are expanding and overflowing vertically and horizontally, are a messy outmoded way to navigate, etc * put an ShowNodes checkbox alongside the hamburger menu, at the top of the Media Tree, for discoverability ... the tooltip display should toggle depending upon whether or not it is checked ... tooltip toggle should read "Show All sub-nodes" when unchecked, and "Improve Contextual Search usability" when is checked * the checkbox should be default to on ... unless there is a significant performance impact for those with low end resources |
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Note that 'Show all subnodes' enabled dy default has no performance downsides unless also 'Focus tree nodes when browsing content' is enabled (which I suggest to keep disabled by default). As for the focus issue, this is already being tracked/discussed as 0017810 where the last suggestion is to add another option, see 0017810:0063585 |
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It'd definitely be easy to simply enable 'Show all subnodes'. That said, I think that this way we lose some advantages of the new MM5 UI. And, I'd say that users who ever try to get accustomed to the new UI are satisfied in the end. So, I wonder whether we couldn't resolve this by making the upgrade path easier. This could mean to show a small banner at the top of Artists, Albums and similar views. This would be one line like: (i) Do you miss tree subnodes of this node as in MM4? Find out more info at [https://mm.com/kb/123]. [X] This wouldn't be shown anymore after clicking the [X] button. |
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OK, agreed that adding tooltips with links to quick start tutorials/videos would be much more helpful here (as changing the default now wouldn't propagate soon anyway -- as many users already updated to MM5 with the old default). |
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"And, I'd say that users who ever try to get accustomed to the new UI are satisfied in the end." TBH I don't see much evidence of this. I would like to hope that it is true, but what is the evidence? I do know that it takes a lot of advocacy, and most people seems to just go TLDR; and then turn sub-nodes back on. The thing is this 1) The Online Help doesn't address the issue of how to best use the new UI. 2) I suspect that one of the reasons for this is that is hard to explain clearly and simply 3) and what is that telling you? ... maybe it is too complex for anybody other than power users People do want an artist list, and an album list that they can scroll through, even only if for non-navigation reasons. That seems clear. MM5 currently does not have that ... but it could with my trailing ">" breadcrumb proposal mentioned above. I think that many would prefer that MM5 had a MM4 compatibility mode. ie. a menu item for * MM5 navigation (recommended) * MM4 navigation MM4 navigation could be: * default the sub-nodes to on * turn off the type-anywhere trigger for contextual search - to reduce fighting between the MediaTree and the Main panel * change the looking glass control to MM4 behaviour: add back the EntireLibrary|CurrentCollection option to the control's dropdown menu * add the list of Views back into the view menu |
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That's right, a basic list of Artists is missing, it's currently either a Grid or a Tracklist. As for the proposed remedy, the breadcrumb navigation could help, but I'd say that it wouldn't cover all the requirements, as e.g. QuickSearch wouldn't be present there. I wonder though whether the view List shouldn't show such a clean list of Artists instead of the current tracklist? We could leave such a tracklist there under different name, or simply show it only in the All Tracks node. |
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What is quick search ... is that aka powerscroll ... ie. type a string, and the list auto-scrolls to that point? This could be implemented into a breadcrumbs ">" dropdown list, couldn't it? It is already in the dropdown panel Advanced Filter for "Artist equals ..." |
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A couple more thoughts The Artist tag is not the only grouping tag where a basic list is missing in MM5. The same argument can be equally applied to AlbumArtist, Album title and Composer tags In (intended?) MM5 mode, user navigation attention has switched from Media Tree to the breadcrumbs. (correct?) This is why a trailing ">" on the breadcrumbs is a good place to make available these lists ... i.e. instead of via yet another modal View inconsistency, which the User needs to know to expect and then switch to I have another suggestion about how to integrate this into the UI. In Location and Folder nodes there is an optional built-in Tree View Element. Maybe if they click the trailing ">" (in album, artist, albumartist, and composer nodes) this could auto-open an embedded tree inside the lhs of the main panel, which functions like the Media Tree did when it had all its populated sub-nodes? I think that this has the benefit of re-using and reinforcing some consistency across MM5 |
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I am afraid that the suggestions above makes the UI even more complicated and confusing. I would still say that having 'Show all nodes' enabled is the simplest and clearest solution without a negative impact. Just 0017810 needs to be resolved though. E.g. Replacing 'Show all subnodes' checkbox by 'Scroll to match when typing in tree' checkbox. |
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"I would still say that having 'Show all nodes' enabled is the simplest and clearest solution without a negative impact." Agree it is simple. Hasn't solved much, because issue moved to 0017810 It is simple, but is not clear IMO. In MM4 it WAS clear. If I typed something, and focus was not in the Media Tree ==> the keyboard was locked, nothing happened, and the bell rang, and the user was trained. In MM5, when sub-nodes are enabled, we are somewhere unclear, stranded between MM4 & MM5. ie. see this small video, as an example https://www.dropbox.com/s/9rasdwv224lpnpl/limbo%20land.mp4?dl=0 The UI suggests that focus is in The Media Tree, but it is not. I type zappa. Nothing happens in the Main panel, nor in the Media Tree, and the bell doesn't ring. I agree that it is not a fatal issue, but you can't claim that it is clear either. This is why I suggested a menu toggle between MM4 and MM5 mode in my 2nd post above. In MM4_navigation_mode, MM5 would lock the keyboard, and ring the bell in the above situation. On MM5 mode there would be no sub-nodes in the Media Tree, so no confusion. MM5 runs as you designed it. Presumably this is the reason for the current default; it IS simple. That would still leave a "problem" in MM5 mode, where the user has no access to a simple list of artists, or albums, or composers for non-navigational purposes, like reviewing the list for irregularities (eg. Sergey Rachmaninov as well as Sergei Rachmaninov). And no list for navigational purposes, which is why I suggested that there be a trailing > in the bread crumbs. |
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>> "Agree it is simple. Hasn't solved much, because issue moved to 0017810" << The issue isn't moved as 0017810 is still an issue (despite the 'Show all subnodes' option). But I believe that option like 'Scroll to match when typing in tree' is clear enough to resolve 0017810 In true, I still believe that 'Show all subnodes' option can be eliminated entirely, as user(s) who don't want to expand the nodes simply won't expand them => so there is no issue. Re your video: You are saying "UI suggests that focus is in The Media Tree", but I don't see this on the video. I guess focus isn't in the tree therefore contextual search is performed. |
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I agree that this is a pragmatic action, and that it should happen. I still think that it is a messy outcome. We got here, not from any plan, but like this, spread over a couple of years: * MM5 early version had no sub-nodes * an add-on option script was written due to User complaints, which were due in some part to the lack of any migration Quick Start documentation * then the add-on was pre-installed, but defaulted off * now it is being defaulted on I will have to have sub-nodes turned on, because there is no other way in MM5 to get *lists* of Artists, or Albums, or Composers. But I will be one of the those Users who leave the LHS panel closed, so as you say there will be no issue. And since I now know MM5 ui well, I won't be too disorientated if occasionally I type something when I accidently have focus in the Media Tree. But I was disorientated, and annoyed and frustrated, in the early days. <<<Re your video: You are saying "UI suggests that focus is in The Media Tree", but I don't see this on the video.>>> My point was that the UI doesn't show where focus was. It can be in places that were impossible in MM4. The only thing that was highlighted was in the Media Tree, so I think that place would be a reasonable (incorrect) assumption. I obviously staged that video to illustrate my point. Here is another very short video, to demonstrate another side of the same issue. This time focus is in the Media Tree. Imagine that I am used to MM5 contextual navigation, so I type something, forgetting where focus is. Pay attention to the bottom left. https://www.dropbox.com/s/syd8yoqtioijctn/limbo%20land%202.mp4?dl=0 It is messy situation. You should do whatever you can to make breadcrumb navigation a solid option, even for those people who prefer lists over matrices of images. In MM4 we could use the breadcrumbs to migrate all the way to our desired destination eg. in MM4 the breadcrumbs were >Collection>AlbumArtist> ... and the trailing > gave a dropdown list but in MM5 the breadcrumbs are >Collection>AlbumArtist, with no trailing > ... so no dropdown list unless I cross back over into the Media Tree ... why? I see only losses, but no gains by removing the trailing ">" in MM5? I do acknowledge that long dropdown lists were a prick to deal with, but they would OK in small collections. |
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Ludek is right that if 0017810 is resolved, there's not a big deal to just keep 'Show all nodes' enabled. We could also get rid of this option altogether, but I'd rather defer the decision. To be honest, I still hope that we could set this option to disabled by default sometimes in the future and rather some of the remedies proposed above in order to keep the tree simpler and show users imho better way how to browse collections. Anyway, for now let's just enable it it. |
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Fixed in 2503. i.e. made 'Show all subnodes' default + resolved 0017810 |
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Verified 2503 Tested on Clean install |
